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A Man for All Seasons
Gudakesh
A free-wheeling interview with Dr. Mostafa Tolba, former
Executive Director of UNEP, who spent an afternoon at
Development Alternatives. His has been an eventful life.
Dr. Tolba started his career as an academic, became a
diplomat, switched to politics to serve as a minister,
eventually becoming an international civil servant.
What projects
are you currently engaged in
?
Dr. Tolba: I am working on two books. The
one on environmental and diplomacy essentially discusses
what actually went into the process of negotiating the
various environment treaties such as those on ozone and
biodiversity. The aim is to examine the role of each
component in promoting them: scientists in pushing the
issue, the NGOs and the media in bringing public pressure to
bear on the governments to act, the leaders of certain
government delegations and how they overcame specific
obstacles and indeed the executive director himself and how
he came up with compromise deals. The focus will be on how
the governments are enabled to work together, and the
community involved in solving environmental problems.
And the second book
?
Dr. Tolba: It deals with the political
aspects, wherein a comparison has been made on the evolving
views of the governments between 1972 and 1992. The
analysis of statements made by governments during the
Stockholm Conference, then 10 years later at Nairobi, and
again a decade later at Rio, are most revealing.
In 1972, the East European countries did not
participate: over the East Germany issue, they boycotted the
1972 conference. In 1982, the Soviet Union was at the
zenith of its power and led the East Europeans: their
statements reflected the influence of their socialist
system. In 1992 the geopolitical map had change
dramatically: the Soviet Union had ceased to exist.
There was no common policy and this was
reflected in the statements on environment. The group of
oil producing nations siding with the US, did not want a
solution. (The solution suggested was reduction in oil
consumption and more efficient energy utilisation). On
climate change the small island states were vociferous as
they were likely to be most adversely affected. On the
issue of the conservation of flora and fauna the Western
nations were grouped against certain Third World countries
rich in biodiversity. (The LDCs maintained that they would
be able to preserve biodiversity with the assistance
provided by the West, and they wanted compensation for their
genetic resources used by transnationals).
All this emerged at the UNCED during which
the statements made by various countries differed widely
from those made in 1982 or 1972. These provide a political
map with different groupings. In 1972, there was a clear
North-South divide. In 1982, the energy hike changed the
scenario. In 1992, Venezuela, Mexico and Saudi Arabia of he
Group of 77, did not side with the developing countries on,
for instance, the issues of climate change; they sided with
the ultra conservative developed countries. The North
continued to be polarized with regard to financial resources
and technology. Furthermore, in 1992 there were South-South
combinations, and combinations of the North and South
against another North/South grouping. All this makes for a
fascinating study.
You began your career as an academic, didn’t
you
?
Dr. Tolba: Yes, I graduated in botany with a
first class from Cairo University and went on to do my Ph.D
from Imperial College, London in biology and plant
pathology. Decades later it elected me as a fellow.
On completing my doctorate I returned to my
alma mater and began teaching. I have published 100
scientific papers in academic journals at home and abroad
and in recognition of my work I was given the best biologist
award by my country in 1959.
When and how
did you shift from academics to functioning as an
international civil servant
?
Dr. Tolba: That was much later. But I think
the skills and method of work I developed as a university
teacher helped me in my subsequent jobs. I never took a
note book, even a piece of paper into the lecture hall and I
read every single paper and book on the subject. This
enabled me to develop a good memory because I had to master
all the details before I went into lecture.
Did you not become a minister on leaving the
university job
?
Dr. Tolba: I was taken on loan by Baghdad
University to establish its botany department. Thereafter I
joined the Supreme Science Council in Cairo as assistant
secretary general.
In those days President Nasser was perturbed
by the refusal of Egyptian students studying abroad to
return home, particularly those in the U.S. There were
1,500 of them; they had been convinced by American
propaganda that there was no future for them in Egypt. The
President sent me to Washington as a member of the embassy.
Mine was a political mission, to convince the students to go
back: I visited 26 to 52 states and held frank discussions
with students, dealing with all their queries, dispelling
their doubts and fears. I was 30 years old then, a few
years older than the students. This, and my academic
background, made them relax with me, open up to me. I must
have convinced them because nearly 50 percent of the
students returned to Egypt.
Having accomplished your mission, did you
return as well
?
Dr. Tolba: Yes, I was pulled back to Cairo
and appointed deputy minister of education. Then I was made
minister of youth and sports. I got on well with the youth,
but the sports department was controlled by cliques and
power groups. Perhaps because I cleaned it up that I was
considered worthy of another ministerial assignment. I was
appointed minister of science.
At this stage I was asked to chair the
national committee of the Stockholm Conference, of which I
was elected vice President.
That was the first step to becoming head of
the United Nations Environment Programme
Dr. Tolba: Well, Maurice Strong became the
executive director of UNEP which was established in January
1973. A month later he appointed me as his deputy executive
director. But I could not immediately take up the
assignment as President Sadat was not willing at first to
release me from my duties in Egypt.
I was elected as executive director for four
full terms, the last time in 1988. I served the UNEP for 17
years.
What do you consider your main achievements
as the UNEP chief
?
Dr. Tolba: First, taking UNEP form a small UN
organisation dealing with peripheral issues to an important
one concerned with major subjects such as armaments and
political issues.
Second, getting governments to overcome their
political differences and sit together for the cause of the
environment to save the earth.
Take the Barcelona Convention, 1975. This
was the first time that the Arab states and Israel - who
were in a state of was (including my country) - all the 17
of the 18 countries (the exception being Albania) sat around
the table, negotiated and signed a treaty to protect the
environment of the Mediterranean Sea and its coastal areas.
Another example is the Montreal Protocol, now
five years old. The significant point is that it was the
first global environment issue which required that the whole
world should work together, co-operate on how to tackle it.
The Protocol was adopted in 1987 and came into force a year
and four months later. And this was a record. Then it was
amended a year and a half later and made much stronger (the
developing countries which had refused to sign it, did so at
this stage). Another year and a half later, at Copenhagen,
it was further strengthened; more ozone depleting substances
were added to the list of those banned and the deadline for
phasing out these was advanced. The Protocol is a major
success as it involved 30-40 contracting parties at each
stage. In all 85 countries have signed it. They have had
it ratified by their respective parliaments and set an
example in international co-operation.
The Basle and Biodiversity Conventions
followed. But the Barcelona and Montreal Protocols are the
two pillars.
What was your attitude when the developing
countries refused to sign the Montreal Protocol
?
Dr. Tolba: I sympathised with India, China
and Brazil. The problem with regard to the ozone layer, as
they saw it, was not of their making. The developed
countries, they insisted, should pay for it. In fact, India
took a particularly strong position, and it was responsible
for the transfer of money and technology into the famous
Montreal Fund, the first in international history.
At the talks
you have delivered during your visit to India you have
referred to the renewal of the North-South dialogue. In the
70s the South’s bargaining chip was oil; is environment the
South’s new weapon
?
Dr. Tolba: What I am saying is that the North
is not prepared to help more than what it is doing at
present. In fact the official development aid may decline,
for some of it at least will be channelled to Eastern
Europe. We have to live with that.
The North is worried about some environment
issues which are not on the South’s agenda. A time may come
when source of the problem and expect us to tackle it.
Hence, we might as well begin to work towards doing so and
get some kudos for it. Why not implement the Montreal
Protocol, a partnership agreement, and demonstrate that we
are serious. This is what I have referred to as ‘common but
differentiated responsibility.’
The second element is that the South can use
the environmental agenda of the North-ozone, climate,
biodiversity, hazardous wastes - to get financial
resources. We can implement these projects, secure funds
and technical aid and shift our own production processes to
get a competitive edge, make our products marketable. Under
the umbrella of environment the South can improve its
products.
Biodiversity
has all along been FAO’s portfolio. How did it become
UNEP’s special responsibility
?
Dr. Tolba: UNEP’s responsibility initially
was to monitor the natural environment. It was a joint
effort, with FAO as the implementing agency. The 1980-81
results were analysed by UNEP and FAO and we drew attention
to the fact that 13.3 million hectares of forests were being
lost each year. Now this figure is 17 million hectares.
Since then, biodiversity has become a joint
enterprise (of FAO and UNEP). UNEP began with exploring the
issue of the loss of forest resources and asked for a
technical group to look into the loss of biodiversity. This
led to the creation of a legal and technical working group,
which in turn meant the setting up of a negotiating group.
This took in all about seven years.
* * *
We had several other questions for Dr. Tolba,
in particular the possibilities of future collaboration
between his organisation and Development Alternatives, and
other Indian NGOs, but he was in demand for yet another talk
at the Scope Centre where we had caught up with him. We
reluctantly let him go expressing the hope that he would
visit us again, and soon.
q
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